2005年NPR美国国家公共电台三月-Consumer Choice: Pros and Cons

Time now for business news.

A key assumption behind the idea of creating private social security accounts is that people will make better choices with their money. It's generally assumed that consumers benefit when they have more options. Steve V. recently brought two people together who have different ideas about making choices.

Russell Roberts is an economics professor at George Mason University. Barry Schwartz is a psychology 1 professor at Swarthmore College.

How does the question of choice affect the larger debate over whether to have private accounts or not, Barry Schwartz?

If you imagine a plan where there are private accounts that offer people a variety of options in which they put their retirement 2 money, then it seems to me, one justification 3 for doing that is to give Americans as much freedom as possible about determining their future. And when life changes from no choice to some choice, it's good in almost every imaginable way. However, when life moves from some choice to mega choice, the apparent freedom that accompanies that turns into a kind of tyranny: People are confused. They are anxious. They don't have enough time to get the kind of information they need, it often ends up paralyzing people rather than liberating 4 them.

Russell Roberts?

Oh, I think the issue of choices in social security reform is a key issue and I think having a wide array choices and dealing 5 with that array is part of what being a grown-up is all about. And although it does have a challenge that we all face when we deal with choice of information, and dealing with potential regret, I think coping with that is what makes us human.

There's an assumption ,isn't there among free market economists 6 that overall, the choices made by millions of people collectively will be better than any one individual could come up with for all of them.

Yeah, I think that's really a dictum of all the economists. I know what's best for me,and you know what's best for you, and I wouldn't wanna dictate 7 what's best for you. You may ask me to dictate for you in certain situations. I may ask my brother to help me make a tough decision. But I think what distinguishes an economist's view from others' is the idea : who makes that decision for me? I certainly want someone who cares about me and knows about me to make that decision, rather than a stranger or a bureaucrat 8.

When it comes to the stock market, though, I would think a lot of people might say they don't really know what's best for them.

Well, there certainly is plenty of evidence. That's true. And in fact there's an article about how well recent retirees have done with their 401(k) investments. And it probably won't come as a shock to you that people with substantial
wealth have done very well, and people (with)of modest means find themselves much worse position than they would have been in,in an old-fashioned defined benefit pension plan. And it's not stupidity, it's lack of time, lack of inclination 9 to devote what time you have to this rather than other difficult choices that you face in life. So I completely agree that part of being a grown-up is making choices. It just doesn't follow from that ,that you're always making people better off by giving them more and more choices and more and more domains 10 of life.

That's Barry Schwartz at Swarthmore College. And Russell Roberts, as you were listening to him speak, you were,well I don't wanna say, smirk 11 across your face, but it was something of a smile.

Come on. No, it's an interesting argument. I mean the stock market is a paralyzing array of choices, so I'm investing in a handful of index mutual 12 funds 'cause I don't like making those choices. And I agree that there're certain situations where more choices are always good. The real question is who's gonna make that decision. Most of us, I think, fight those choices.

Barry Schwartz?

When people are presented with the opportunity to make choices, they're very attracted by large option sets. A set of 20 possibilities looks more attractive than a set of five. So you give them then the set of 20 possibilities, and at that point they discover they don't know how to choose when they finally choose. They're less satisfied with what they've choosen than they would have been if they had choosen from the smaller set.

Barry Schwartz, stepping back a little bit from the social security debate, what's a concrete example in daily life?

I teach at Swarthmore College which is a small school, very selective, wonderful place. Our students get to choose among 300 or so courses every semester the five that they're gonna take. They finally choose and they spend the rest of the semester wondering whether they've been better off taking this course instead of that one, instead of devoting themselves to pursuing the courses they've choosen.I think we're doing them no favor by giving them that much choice, so I agree that choices are essential to well-being 13, it just doesn't follow that more choice enhances well-being.

Russell Roberts?

Well, I'm glad they have the freedom to take your course, Barry. But, you know, I think you raised a good point about regret. I think regret's a big challenge. We face that even when we make large choices particularly where to go college, what job to take, who to marry. Those choices are difficult partly because of the array that's available, and also because the idea that there gonna be opportunity you have to pass off.It is often not difficult. I think the issue gonna, as being a grown-up, I won that freedom for myself and my choice of job, my choice of toothpaste, my choice of spouse 14, my choice of social security reform,a package or more accurately 15 the choice of where I put my money for my future.

Russell Roberts, does the free market and the absolute freedom of choice always serve the consumer best?

Well, people make mistakes, companies cheat.The question is how do you constrain 16 those areas to be as small as possible.The second question is how do you create an enviroment where people can use their skills and live their dreams in the most creative way possible. And the free market does that. The ability to make those choices is really what sets us free to innovate 17 and be creative. And it's the greatest chance in our living that we see around us. The extraordinary revolution, the medical care of the last hundred years, the extraordinary extension of our standard of living, all spring from the freedom we have to buy and sell from one another ,what Adam Smith called the human tendency to "truck, barter 18 and exchange'.

Barry Schwartz?

Well, I think that in fact, the extraordinary innovations we've seen in medical care have almost entirely 19 been derived 20 from none market-based research in our universities and hospitals over the years. It's not free market competition for profit that's produced this innovation, it's scientists who are driven by a passion for the truth. Yes, there's an important place for the market.It isn't every place. And I think the more important area of life you are talking about the smaller the role market should be.

Barry Schwartz is a psychology professor at Swarthmore College and also author of "The Paradox 21 of Choice: Why More Is Less" Thanks very much.

My pleasure.

Russell Roberts is a professor of economics at George Mason University and author of "The Invisible Heart : an Economic Romance". Thanks.