美国国家公共电台 NPR As Mueller Picks Up Pace, Capital Roils With Talk Of Pardons And Firing

DAVID GREENE, HOST:

This week, special prosecutor 1 Robert Mueller picked up the public pace of his investigation 2 into Russian interference in the presidential election. He rolled out two indictments 3 and also revealed a potentially important plea agreement. Now, all of this led to reports that President Trump 4 is considering firing Mueller or perhaps pardoning the targets of this investigation. Let's hear more now from NPR legal affairs correspondent Nina Totenberg.

NINA TOTENBERG, BYLINE 5: The indictments charge that former Trump campaign manager Paul Manafort and his business partner violated the federal law requiring Americans to register and disclose activities undertaken as agents of a foreign power and that they then sought to cover up their activities by laundering 6 millions of dollars in profits and failing to pay taxes on those hidden profits. Separately, a former foreign policy adviser 7 to the campaign pled guilty to lying to federal investigators 8 about meetings with a Russian agent who promised, quote, "dirt on Hillary Clinton." Trump tweeted furiously as the legal actions were unveiled, railing about the fixation on this story by the press and, by implication, the prosecutor. His rage provoked speculation 9 that he might seek to abort 10 the investigation by firing Mueller or pardoning Manafort and others to prevent them from making a deal and somehow implicating 11 Trump or his family in colluding with the Russians. The White House denied that the president was considering firing Mueller, quote, "at this time." And as for potential pardons that would stymie 12 the investigation, well, listen to this exchange with reporters called into the Oval Office for a photo-op.

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED RECORDING)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER #1: Are you going to pardon Manafort?

PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: Thank you. Thank you, everybody.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER #2: Mr. President, what's your reaction to...

TRUMP: Thank you very much.

TOTENBERG: In short, the president did not answer the question. So what are the limits of his pardoning power? Would such pardons be grounds for impeachment 14? Indeed, would firing Mueller be grounds? The Constitution gives the president the broad power to grant pardons, quote, "for offenses 16 against the United States except in cases of impeachment." That means he can pardon anyone charged with a federal crime but not state crimes. And he can't prevent his own impeachment by pardoning himself. Indeed, he can pardon a person for past actions, even if that individual has not yet been charged.

So in the current circumstance, President Trump could pardon any of the individuals under scrutiny 17 in the Russian probe. And that would deprive special prosecutor Mueller of his ability to pressure witnesses. Experts say there is nothing anyone could do to invalidate such pardons. A presidential pardon cannot be undone 18. But constitutional scholar Cass Sunstein, author of a new book on impeachment, notes that the framers of the Constitution in the Virginia ratification 19 debate discussed whether abuse of the pardon power would be an impeachable 20 offense 15. And James Madison explicitly 21 said it would be.

CASS SUNSTEIN: If the president counsels crimes personally or participates in crimes personally and then exercises the pardon power so as to shelter the people who engaged in those crimes, the Virginia debate is very clear - that is an impeachable offense.

TOTENBERG: Not all pardons constitute an impeachable offense, he cautions - pardoning a campaign official who have evades taxes, for instance, or launders 22 money may amount to ugly favoritism, but it isn't a wanton abuse of power. Sunstein adds, however, if a president were to pardon someone who's worked with the Russian government to find dirt on a political opponent...

SUNSTEIN: That's traitorous 23. That's a betrayal of the principles for which the American Revolution was fought and for which our founding document was signed.

TOTENBERG: And, says Sunstein, if the president were to instead fire the special prosecutor after previously 24 firing the FBI director...

SUNSTEIN: If that happened, all bets are off.

TOTENBERG: Maybe. But 43 years ago, in a less politically polarized time, only 7 out of 17 Republicans on the House Judiciary Committee voted to impeach 13 Richard Nixon. A week later, Nixon released what came to be known as the smoking gun tape. His support all but vanished, and he resigned. As Michigan State University professor Brian Kalt observes...

BRIAN KALT: It's not a coincidence that no president has ever been impeached 25 by a House controlled by his party.

TOTENBERG: Nina Totenberg, NPR News, Washington.

(SOUNDBITE OF JIMI HENDRIX SONG, "BORN UNDER A BAD SIGN")