威胁同性恋者的权利即威胁国际正义

Uganda's 'Daily Monitor' Editor: Threat to Gay Rights a Threat to National Justice

威胁同性恋者的权利即威胁国际正义

JOSELOW: "First of all, the title of your article is 'Those Who Go After Gays and Sex Workers Will One Day Go After Teachers and Doctors.' Can you explain what you mean by that?"

“首先,您文章的标题是《那些反对同性恋者和性工作者的人迟早有一天会去反对老师和医生》。您能解释一下这是什么意思吗?”

KALINAKI: "What I basically mean is that people need to stand up against injustice 1, even if it's meted 2 out against people they might disagree with, because injustice creeps up on society, starts with minorities, starts with people who are different from the rest of us all, but eventually it consumes the entire society. And I give examples in the article of people who are like us, you know, they're standing 3 up for basic rights of pay, of work conditions, who have been subjected to the same kind of disruptive interference by state agents as the homosexual community or the gay rights activists 4 in Uganda."

“我的基本意思是,人们需要站起来反对不公正,尽管这是基于人们可能会不同意,一切皆因不公正已经侵袭社会,始于少数人,始于和剩下的我们所有人与众不同的那些人,但是最终,它吞噬了整个社会。我在文章中举像我们这样的人为例,你知道,他们反对比如薪水,工作条件等这样的基本权利，还有在乌干达同性恋社区或者同性恋权利分子遭受着各州机构同样的破坏性干涉。”

JOSELOW: "And later on you go on to say that regardless of your views on homosexuality, something like the recent raid on gay activists should concern everybody. So, how do you convince someone who is against homosexuality that they should be concerned as well?"

“之后你继续表示不管你对同性恋的看法如何,就像最近一些同性恋分子的袭击事件应该引起每一个人的关注。因此,你会怎样说服那些反对同性恋的人去关注呢? ”

KALINAKI: "Well because you need to separate the moral from the legal. You might have your views about homosexuality, you might detest 5 homosexuality and people who choose to be homosexual, but you must be willing to defend the basic fundamental rights of association of assembly and of expression. Because if they take those rights away from the homosexuals, nothing stops the government from taking those rights away from you. So it starts with people who are easy to isolate 6 and demonize but it eventually - and history is littered with hundreds of examples - it eventually catches up with everyone."

“嗯,你需要把道德从法律中分离出来。你对同性恋可能有自己的态度,你可能会厌恶同性恋者或者那些选择成为同性恋的人,但你必须有志于保护人权协会基本权利的集会权和发言权。因为如果他们不将这些权利赋予同性恋者,也许就没有什么可以阻止政府同样把这些权利从你身上夺去。所以这始于人轻易就可以孤立化和着魔化,但它最终——历史上有数百个例子——它最终赶上每个人。”

JOSELOW: "Was the recent raid an isolated 7 incident, or part of a bigger pattern in Uganda?"

“最近的袭击是一次孤立事件,还是乌干达大规模事件的一部分呢?”

KALINAKI: "We have seen of course, the gay-bashing in Unganda has been around for a long time and there are people who have very strong views against homosexuality and they are entitled to those views. People who have a problem with homosexuality are as entitled to holding those views as those who think that homosexuals have a right to live their lives as they choose. And that debate needs to take place, but what we're seeing is not just the gay bashing, we're seeing an erosion and the curtailment 8 of civil liberties.

“我们看到,当然,殴打同性恋者在乌干达已经存在了很长时间,有些人对同性恋者抱有很强敌意,他们也有权如是思想。对同性恋感觉有问题的人都有权持有那些观点而那些认为同性恋者有权利的人是基于他们的选择。那种争执需要发生,但是我们所看到的不仅仅是殴打同性恋者,我们看到的是一种侵蚀及剥夺公民的自由。

Opposition 9 demonstrations 10 and political rallies have been interrupted. We've seen attempts to influence the content of radio and TV broadcasts as well as print articles, we've seen demonstrations by teachers, by doctors broken up. There is a pattern and I imagine the pattern is the government, where people hold views that are critical of its policies, or views that the government does not agree with, is willing to abuse the constitutional rights of assembly of expression, bringing the law enforcement agencies to actually abuse the law."

反对派示威和政治集会被阻碍。我们已经看到试图影响广播和电视以及印刷文章内容的各种努力,我们已经看到了教师及医生们的游行。还有一种模式而我想象那种模式会是政府,那里的人们对政策有不同的看法,或者是政府不同意的看法,愿违反宪法集会权和发言权，使执法机构实际反作用于法律。”

JOSELOW: "Now, Uganda has received a lot negative attention from the international community because of an anti-homosexual law being put forward in the parliament. The government's response has been that this is a Ugandan issue, it doesn't concern anyone else. Do they have a point?"

“现在,乌干达受到了许多来自国际社会的负面关注权因议会提出的反对同性恋法律。政府的反应好像是这是乌干达的问题,它不关别人的事。他们到底怎么看?”

KALINAKI: "A lot of the criticism by the international community has actually been self-defeating. You cannot stop, or you should not condemn 11 those who hold alternative viewpoints. If there are people in Uganda who have strong views against homosexuality, they have the right to be heard they have the right to have their views debated. But the people who say they have the problem with homosexuality do not represent every Ugandan.

“很多国际社会的批评实际上一直是不利于自己的。你不能阻止,或者你不应该谴责那些另类观点。如果在乌干达有人强烈反对同性恋,他们有权利听到而且他们有权辩论自己的观点。但是那些说对同性恋有问题的人并不代表每一个乌干达人。

Now as a straight Ugandan with a family and a partner I have my views about homosexuality, but I don't think it is my place to determine how the next guy chooses his life and what sexual orientation 12 he chooses. So this needs to be seen as a rights-based issue. The people who try to stop the debate actually force the issue away from a rights-based issue, they lose the moral high ground and they give fuel to homophobic people who say this is something that is being pushed and sponsored by the outside."

现在,我作为乌干达非同性恋者并已有家室及一位伙伴，自己本身也对同性恋有着见解,但我不认为自己的位置可以确保下一个家伙可以选择他的生活,还有他的性取向。所以这需要被看作是一个以权利为基础的问题。那些试图阻止争论的人其实正把这个问题强加到远离基本权利问题的层面,他们丧失了基本道德准则,而且对那些害怕同性恋的人添油加醋的说道这是外界的决断和支持的问题。”